Non-Sequitor

Sticky Note: Landmark Forum: Rants and Raves:

Hmm.Landmark Forum was this weekend.

My Weekend of Possibiliy

Are you "enrollable?" Get rid of your "racket...!"

Ode and Celebration of Divergent Thinking.

Throwing down the Landmark Gauntlet

easily seduced krista. Blog entry before Forum

life is empty and meaningless

From the Cape Cod Times. Got Cult?

an extraordinary departure: almost got arrested

Wait, wait WAIT!

Seething

So Tired, Today is the first day of my Forum

The Landmark Forum: it teaches you what you didnt know you didnt know

My point is that the Landmark Forum is NOT for me.

Divya; Landmark enthusiast -Collegue to Soldier

Cirne

Landmark Day 1

Landmark Day 2...

Landmark Day 3

Bad Start

Interesting Links: Landmark Forum

Landmark Forum - Day 1

Tuesday: All-out War

i know this is long, but it's important

I might as well because it will make him happy

NYTimes: "New York City Energy Secret Uncovered" / SeattlePI: "On Being Nice"

Ranting/processing

The life of gaf: Landmark A very short Post!

More On Cults

The PROPHET, by Kahlil Gibran

Is the Landmark Forum a Cult or Just a Great Way to Make Friends and Influence People

Evil Cults

Apologies

Cue Theme to Jaws

August 02, 2005

On Good & Evil

Are you "enrollable?" Get rid of your "racket...!"

an extraordinary departure: almost got arrested

6 shanthi:

2005-12-31T22:00:00.000-08:00

Did you write your experience about Landmark Education and the Forum in your blog?
You did est and you're remininsing? How's your life going? Got Forum rellies with enthusiasm? Got a Link to something interesting? To suggest a link, stick it in the comments section or email me. Audioblogging is free and easy! Leave an audio comment.

Wit and originality are admired.

Till LE staff contacted me this year to change a few links, which I was glad to do, I had left Landmark Forum: Rants and Raves frozen and dormant for the last 5 years, links had gone dead and not much new had been added, and in that time, spent my time on many other things, content to leave this site to sit as it was originally designed. It was designed to be text based, conserving of bandwidth and friendly to dial up uses, because we really didn't have widespread DSL back then.

But we do now. So much has changed in just the last 5 years. We have blogs, digital cameras and Web cams and mp3's and many people have fast internet connections. So its time to update the conversation, collect some of the newest content and move into the faster lane. We can add interviews, movies, audio posts, skits...

Part of this blog Non-sequitor will be devoted to documentation of the Landmark Experience culled from unofficial blogs and original material written or made after Jan 2005.

If you want to help add and search for new content, Drop me a note to get on the 'team'

As always, contributors may not be on LE staff, not a current volunteer, not an exit counselor, deprogrammer or cult critic because we refuse to blur the lines between commercials and commentary.

We'll be using some of the standards from Bloggers code of ethics.

"Distinguish between advocacy, commentary and factual information. Even advocacy writing and commentary should not misrepresent fact or context."

" Distinguish factual information and commentary from advertising and shun hybrids that blur the lines between the two."

I opine that this is an example of where advertising is melted into a blog AboutlandmarkForum.blogspot.com

If it ain't original, it will be ignored.

2005-09-29T03:36:00.000-07:00

From the post of stealthbanana, Hmm.Landmark Forum was this weekend.:

Hmm.

Landmark Forum was this weekend.

Fucking amazingly cool.

The best part? At the end when Michelle Casey, some random landmark guy who knew way too much about me, and Jan the forum leader all told me I _needed_ to assist. That I was so amazingly awesome that I had to assist.

And then Jan tells me "You know Joey, we need 30 more forum leaders and I think you have what it takes."

I was just blown away. I am amazing guys! I really am! Fuck yeah, bitches!

So I work for Landmark as a volunteer now. How cool is that?

	antisketchy 2005-09-20 06:00 (link)
	Ahh that's so cool...makes me happy to no end. Yay for us and for Landmark and for Jan and Michelle and life in general. Whee...

2005-09-29T03:27:00.000-07:00

From the post of Ms. Sky Bluez, My Weekend of Possibiliy:

My Weekend of Possibiliy

I must admit that I dreaded this past weekend. It wasn't that I was repeating the Landmark Forum it was knowing that I'd spend three long days (9am - 11pm) in conversation while sitting in a room with uncomfortable chairs. I resisted it as if it was like getting my fingernails pulled out with pliers. Of course, it was hardly like that.

So, what happened? If you want to know the dirty dirty...you'll have to do the Forum yourself...but I'm going to put what I got out of participating in the Landmark Forum.

On Friday...we had to identify our "rackets" or the stories we make up about the things that happen in our lives. The term racket is used in the same manner as the phrase "running a racket" like gangsters do - yanno, the store front covering the underground casino? We also identified areas of our lives where we are being inauthentic.

*clearing my throat*

What I identified as my "rackets" are (in no particular order of importance):

No one ever listens to me
I am not appreciated for what I do
They think that I'm weak
I can't get it right
I'm not like them/I don't belong
I'm a doormat/too nice

Those are the stories that I have made up based on events that have happened through out my life. When I am running these rackets (playing these games), I'm not present to what's going on and there's a breakdown in communication. Of course, none of these rackets are true in reality...it's just the hand that I play.

What I identified as my inauthenticities vary, depending on who I'm inauthentic to. If I had to make a blanket statement about my inauthenticities, it would be that my "main one" is that I'm not self-expressed. What that means is that I don't always say what's on my mind or how I feel especially when I'm asked. That essentially means that in this area, I lie and pretend. What does this do? It makes me miserable and angry because I often do things that I don't want to do. It's also not fair to whomever my inauthenticity is directed to because I'm not being truthful and usually the misery and anger is unfairly directed at them.

Our homework for that evening share a possibility that I've created for myself out of my participation in the LF. In addition we had to write a letter to someone we were being inauthentic to by sharing the inauthenticity, it's impact and the possibility we've created for ourselves.

The letter that I had written was to one of my Sisters...I didn't read the letter to her, but I did get to share my inauthenticity, it's impact, and the possibility that I've created for myself and my life. The conversation that we had was powerful in that I created the possibility of being self-expressed at all times, and that we would recreate a loving relationship as we had (if not better) than before. I was able to share with her how much she and our friendship means to me and that I value her for who she is. I also made a commitment to be fully present and to honor my word. Needless to say, it was a weight lifted from my shoulders. Who knew that being truthful could feel so good?!

During that day, I also made it a point to contact my brother. It's inherent that you love your family, but how many times do we actually say it to one another? As long as I could remember, I had never told my brother that I loved him. My recollection of our interaction is that I'm usually barking and fussing at him. Of course, he's usually barking and fussing back. Nevertheless, we still love each other. I called my brother on Friday afternoon to tell him that I loved him. Initially it was weird and I'm sure he thought that I was smoking something, but I commenced to tell him how much I admired him for being such a brave person. Even though my brother is younger, I never have to worry about him because he knows how to survive. At least he makes it appear that he can survive. At the moment that my brother and I spoke on such an elevated level, we began a new journey of closeness that we've never experienced before. I'm truly grateful for that.

On Saturday, we delved more into what stops us from achieving what we want in life. The take home message is that what happens happens and that's all that happens and that life happens now. We also were asked to identify our "strong suits" those personality traits that make us successful, and where they came from.

What I identified as my strong suits are:

Reliable
Affectionate
Good Listener
Empathetic
Thoughtful
Insightful
Mature
Friendly
Intelligent/Smart

Over time, these are the personality traits that allow me to be successful in life. Something happened in my life that made me decide to develop these traits as defense mechanisms. For example, when I was younger, I was not much of an athlete. I couldn't double dutch very well, I couldn't run very fast, I could never hit a baseball. I was an utter failure in the area of sports. Because of that, I turned to music and academics as a place to divert my energy. It was an area of my life in which I've excelled, thus making intelligence/smart one of my strong suits. That was really basic as intelligence is relative.

On day 2, I also wrote another letter, this time to my Ex. I put it all out there that the reason I ceased communication with him is because I was being selfish and couldn't imagine the thought of being friends with someone I once had a romantic relationship with. I created the possibility of us being friends although we live separate lives. For me, it was liberating. I knew that all he wanted was to remain friends and I acted like a dork. Of course, you need time to get your act together after a break up, but I couldn't see that initially.

Day 3 is really where the meat of the course lies in my opinion. There's conversation about the "meaning" of life as well as sex, money, and love. You can only say so much about those topics. The take away that I got is that life's meaning is what you make it and that love is always around, you just have to be present to it. In regards to sex...it happens or not and that it doesn't mean anything if it doesn't. Pretty simple and common sense right? Of course, but when you're not living in these contexts, these are areas are easy generators of stress and emotional distress.

I will admit, taking the Landmark Forum is an act of sheer courage and bravery as you become privy to some things in your life that you rather not remember or that you prefer not to address. The reality is that there's nothing to "get" by taking the course in general, but what you "get" may change your view of life. I've heard people's opinion of LF, both people who have and have not taken the course and it's even been called a cult because people are happy and aren't letting bad things that have happened get them down. What they fail to understand is that nothing and everything happens and we give it meaning. Whatever it means to us is how we'll pattern our behavior. Plain and simple, yet not easy.

posted Monday, 19 September 2005

2005-09-29T03:00:00.000-07:00

From the post of lizerk@work, Are you "enrollable?" Get rid of your "racket...!:

Last year I spent countless occasions patiently telling a friend of mine that I had absolutely no interest in attending The Landmark Forum. I was so sick of hearing about how she was having "breakthroughs" and learning to "let go."

(For those of you who don't know what The Landmark Forum cult is, click here.)

The worst was when she called me very early one Saturday morning out of the blue. It was to apologize for all of the times that she's ever been late to see me and that "it was selfish of her to take advantage of our friendship like that." I was a little taken aback because I had just woken up and she was speaking rapidly.

"What?" I asked groggily. "What are you talking about?"

"I need to release myself from my selfish behavior and I want to ask you to forgive me."

"Why are you calling me at this hour on a Saturday morning to seek forgiveness about being late? I don't care. You're never that late anyway, so it's not like it's a big deal. Where are you?"

"I'm at The Forum, but our break is almost over, so I have to go. But I felt it was important that I tell you that."

Not wanting to belittle something my friend felt was important, I simply said, "Okay, call me later." And hung up.

I had thought on it a moment, but then shrugged it off. My friend is totally into self-help stuff and trying to find something to give her life cause and meaning, so I figured that call had to have stemmed from one of those.

Following that phone call my friend tried using clever tactics to get me to attend "Forum informational gatherings" just about every time she saw me.

The first attempt preyed upon my weakness for sushi. "Hey, this guy from The Forum is holding an informational session. He's going to serve sushi and I know how much you like sushi. You should come and have some..."

No thank you. I'm busy that night...

The next attempt preyed upon my weakness for poking fun at 'the unfortunate clowns of society.' "Hey, after our workout tonight, this girl's having a get together of Forum people. Wanna go with me? It'd be fun. You'll meet some new people, plus there's some real 'interesting characters' that always show up. I bet you'd get a kick out of it..."

No thank you. I'm not really interested. Plus I'd feel bad going to something like that and pretending to want to know more when I really want nothing to do with it. I've been to Tony Robbins, that was enough in and of itself. (Though I have to admit, she almost got me that time... I howled with laughter at Tony Robbins in 2000 when my old company made me and a group of 7 others attend.

Some of the people that go to such seminars can be, well, quite dramatic. So it really was rather tempting to witness some more of the same...)

The third attempt was simply desperation. "God, I just feel like everything's been so much clearer to me lately. I love The Forum and I really think you should just come see what it's about. Really awesome..."

Ask me again and I'll slap you. I'm glad it works for you and I support you in anything that helps you find what you need in life. But I'm telling you, I'm not into that stuff. Knock it off.

Finally she really did knock it off. But she did get a mutual friend to go. And that poor friend said it was the most bizarre experience... "they wouldn't even let me go to the bathroom... so WEIRD..."

Since then, every so often I'd hear people talk about "The Forum." I'd just laugh and thankfully they were smart enough not to try and convince me to go. I really can't fathom paying $800 to listen to uncertified people tell me that I "need to let my demons go," not to mention that I couldn't go pee when I needed to.

Last week a good friend of mine went to brunch with an old college buddy to discuss some kind of fundraiser for their upcoming reunion. They're both class officers, so the goal was to put a plan in place. When I saw her out for dinner soon after I asked her how it went.

"It was okay," she answered. "We didn't really get much done."

"Oh yeah?" I grinned. "Catching up on the old days and gossip?"

"Sorta," she said. "It was mostly her talking about herself."

Fun.

Yesterday my friend e-mailed me to say that on Wednesday she might be going to Brunch Girl's house for an "informational seminar" she's hosting.

I responded saying, "Cool, is it for your school reunion plans?"

She then wrote back saying no, that it was something that her friend said would "help her with communicating and relating with people. It's called The Landmark Forum."

GAH!

Within seconds I had her on the phone. Ironically, just days earlier I had come across this website.

At the same time of calling her, I e-mailed the link. Luckily it wasn't hard to convince her not to go. One mention of "cult-like" and she was turned off.

Ugh, I LOATHE Landmark. I wish it would get shut down. I hate that they recruit people by pressuring members to go after close, trusted friends, followed by preying on their weaknesses.

I do, however, get a kick out of the "buzz words" that Landmark uses. As a PR practitioner, I have seen some brutal ones in my day such as "robust," "turnkey," "best-of-the-Web," etc. But Landmark wins, hands-down, with terms like "enrollable," "breakthroughs," "racket," "paradigm-shift," and "winning formulas."

In fact, how fun would it be to do PR for Landmark? A disappointing click on the media section of the official Landmark site indicates that the "fun" press releases stopped as of 2002. And what a shock, considering the opening statement in the final one:

February 18, 2002 – CHICAGO – Top 100 Expo has named Landmark Education’s The Landmark Forum number two in its list of Top 100 Adventures – second only to space travel.

Second only to space travel! Amazing. Does that mean Landmark participants are space cadets?? (Har har... come on now.)

The most recent article posted to their site was from October of 2004. I found it hard to believe that this was the most recent coverage. I mean, how is that possible if the only other exciting adventure next to Landmark is space travel?!

So I consulted with my friend Mr. Google. ....edit to remove link ... Landmark Forum is bigger and making more money than ever before. It has 52 offices in 21 countries and boasts that 145,000 people participate in its programs annually. I was told that before 9/11 they occupied an entire floor of one of the World Trade Center towers. Now they have quite a large operation at West 33rd St. near Penn Station.

Wow, I would love to talk with their Public Relations representative Nicole Clucus. Especially since her name is also connected to New York Women in Communications, Inc. Is that how Landmark is so successful? Do they sponsor other organizations to draw unsuspecting members in? Hmmm...

2005-08-31T07:35:00.000-07:00

Tin Foil Hats

2005-08-18T16:52:00.000-07:00

Divergent Thinking Abilities

creative thinking and behaviors

Adapted and modified from the works of Williams, F. E.

Creative production is often characterized by the divergent nature of human thought and action. Divergence is usually indicated by the ability to generate many, or more complex or complicated, ideas from one idea or from simple ideas or triggers. Traditionally the eight elements below are ones commonly thought of as inherent elements of creative production, as well as attributes associated with creative problem solving abilities.

Fluency � The ability to generate a number of ideas so that there is an increase of possible solutions or related products.

Flexibility - The ability to produce different categories or perceptions whereby there are a variety of different ideas about the same problem or thing.

Elaboration � The ability to add to, embellish, or build off of an idea or product.

Originality � The ability to create fresh, unique, unusual, totally new, or extremely different ideas or products

Complexity � The ability to conceptualize difficult, intricate, many layered or multifaceted ideas or products.

Risk-taking � The willingness to be courageous, adventuresome, daring -- trying new things or taking risks in order to stand apart.

Imagination � The ability to dream up, invent, or to see, to think, to conceptualize new ideas or products � to be ingenious.

Curiosity � The trait of exhibiting probing behaviors, asking and posing questions, searching, being able to look deeper into ideas, and the wanting to know more about something.

2005-08-18T09:27:00.000-07:00

http://www.livejournal.com/community/landmark_forum/18782.html

2005-08-18T09:11:00.000-07:00

easily seduced krista.

[17 Mar 2004|01:43am]

[	mood	\|	cynical	]
[	music	\|	tlc	]

michelle is convinced that i will be completley brainwashed this weekend.
i dont blame her.
i think i am also.
so we are going to spend extra time together while im still "normal krista".
its my families money.
i cant say no.
im a stupid cunt.

spent my afternoon sleeping and then got woken up by crystal.
later went to visit her and we ate niland chinese food.
i like the pink juice.

drove back home and lingered around michelle while she put up videos.
came home cleaned and talked to isaac.
he wants to get some tattoos done next week with me and michelle.
he suggested we do something together this weekend.
i think he feels sorry for me.
hah.

and now i sleep.

2005-08-18T09:07:00.000-07:00

http://www.livejournal.com/users/hardcandyrox/49514.html

life is empty and meaningless.

[25 Mar 2004|09:56pm]

[	mood	\|	happy	]
[	music	\|	hoobastank-the reason.	]

so my room floor cannot be seen due to the GIANT amount of clothes, trash, and plenty of other shit and i couldnt be happier.
i now have one of the crappiest low paying job calipat has to offer and i couldnt be happier.
nothing can really or has come close to phazing me in the past few days.
i have grown more as a person in this last weekend than i have ever in my entire life before.
i dont know where to start but it all became clear to me on sunday night in san diego while sitting in that big room in that extremley uncomfortable chair among 120 extrodarinary people...and then it became clear to me...
my life is now empty and meaningless.

it all started friday morning around 6:00 am.
my cousin rosa drove me to foggy san diego and talked about this amazing breakthrough in my life that was, little did i know, about to happen. it all sounded really foriegn to me. she spoke about the course as though it was almost holy and the most important and moving thing that i could do for myself right now.
i couldnt have been anymore cynical if i tried. but i was willing because ive seen this amazing change in her that i couldnt deny and i knew she loved me enough to not let me down or lie to me.

that morning i met this pair of complelety perfect strangers. angela and jackie. my cousins friends of friends of friends. it was arranged that i stay with their family while i took the course, and i was devasted but excited at the same time.

it was 8 am and everyone took their seats. i could feel the anticipation as a tall, skinny, all too boring looking white man took the stage. this was Barry. my landmark fourm speaker. during the first day which soon turned into a long, sleepy, tiring night he set down the rules for us and threw hundreds of new terms, rules, and concepts in our faces. there was something too calm about this guy too assured. "My sole purpose for this weekend is your breakthrough. it will happen. all you have to do is be coachable." i couldnt help but fall asleep. this is why i dont remember too much about the first night, except for being driven to some complete strangers house and feeling more alone and sad than ever before. like a "oh my god im in a place ive never been before with people i just met today and arent all that nice and theres no one coming to save me" type of alone. i made some phone calls home and was so happy to hear michelles voice.

the next day, Saturday, started out slow. Barry explained we were going to get the forum in portions. "Yesterday you got five percent of your landmark experience, today youll get about 30 of it, then sunday is 60 percent, and finally tuesday night youll get the last and most critical 5 percent. The day consited mostly of questions. we listened to his stories of past forums and what previous participants shared about their pasts. and he did too. he talked about the first time taking the forum when he live back home in virginia in order to seek a new perspective after his divorce was final. he claimed his experience saved his mariage and moved him so much to leave his real estate job and take on becoming a speaker for landmark. he talked about his kids and fought back tears knowing that if it wasnt for his experience he woud have thrown them all away. i myself didnt really see any life changing moments happening soon. i simply wanted some motivation before i started school again. but i couldnt help but want what he had, "A life open to possibilites and deep, passionate, extrodinary, loving, meaningful relationships with our families and friends."

We began with talking about our past and experiences growing up. we paired with the people next to us and talked about a significant experience in our lives that left us deeply impacted growing up. He claimed that everything and that has ever happend to us determined who we are today, not because thats just something that happens, but because we decided it. Barry explained the concept of "Stories", and how everyone had significant moments in their lives growing up that affected the way you thought about things, people, and yourself profoundly. only it wasnt the actual experience that altered your thininking and emotions, but it was they way you interpreted it thereofere creating a story about it. most people didnt buy it until, he started proving everyone wrong.

and then i thought about my experience with jossue the previous week and how awful it left me feeling. i remember walking to a party with michelle and witnessing him with another girl being all over each other. i thought about it long and hard and then realized that not only did him being with another girl have nothing to do with me as a person but in reality had no good valid reason to keep me from living a happy life. i could simply know that this occurance was just something that happened. not something that was true to the story that i had wrote about it..."he did this to hurt me because he dosent care about me and wants me sad." then i realized how powerful that was. i now could now live in a world where you have a choice about how thing affect you, because in reality nothing really is its just the way you occurs to you. jossue occured to me as a guy who was out to hurt me, when in reality he wasnt or isnt, thats just the way he occured to me.

when this conversation was over we were encouraged to call everyone on our break that we wrote stories about and make it "complete" with them. this was probably the hardest part of the course. but after phoning jossue and explaining how making it complete with him was something that i had to do for myself , and hearing him tell me everything was okay felt like a billion pounds had been lifted off of me. it was powerful to take that control back. now it was starting.

sunday seemed to move by really quick for me. it now all seems like a blur to but i remember coming to a lot of conclusions about how id been making my dad, mom and brother "wrong" about a lot of things. i took in consideration that mabye if i made it complete with them i could move on and become somone new. something compleltey new to me. Barry explained that everything started with a conversation and how "enrolling"- (to touch, move and inspire someone) people would become easy. all you had to do was become purily authentic and present with them and in return it was only automatic that they be enrolled in the possibilities you could now create for yourself and your life around you. all it took was being genuine and they would respond. we also talked about intergrity-(saying what you do, and doing what you say) and how our world is slowly falling into a piece of crap because of the complete lack of it.

so to put it simply i left the landmark forum complelty free from my past and am left with nothing. nothing is powerful. because once you have nothing you have the power and ability to do anything. and therefore once i thought about it, life is now empty and meaningless. meaningless in a way, that i now see having the power to give everything in my life new meaning instead of the meanings that i thought were just automatic. and once i realized this everything all the sudden became really quiet, because that little voice inside my head that was always influencing me with reasonable and automatic thoughts finally shut up. i could now create any possibilites i wanted for myself, and my life around me. because now i have gained so much. including being so compeltley present in every moment because i learned the past has already happend, and the future has come yet, the only time i have is right now.

and with that comes having a really great passionate, exciting, new life.
i cannot help but feel like im 3 years old again because i feel as though everythings new to me.
my house looks different.
driving is really intense.
and everyone and everything i encounter i really see and experience now.

i cannot wait till michelle does it soon. i cant help but want all of my friends and family to do it now because i love them all and want them to have this experience and get what i got out of it.

i want to enroll everyone in my new possiblitiy im inveting for myself of being a loving, healthy, bold, and unreasonable person.

2005-08-18T08:18:00.000-07:00

"Has anyone had a friend or family member get involved in a cult, even those that may appear respectable such as Scientology or Landmark Education? [For cult characteristics, I am cut-and-pasting from the Rick Ross Institute website: Psychiatrist Robert Jay Lifton, who wrote the definitive book about thought reform (often called "brainwashing") also wrote a paper about cult formation. Lifton defined a cult as having the following three characteristics:"

long discussion ensues. click title for link

2005-08-14T11:03:00.000-07:00

mmonk (mmonk) wrote:

20.8.04

i took a day off from work to attend the 3-day landmark forum. the programme was scheduled take place from 09:00 to 23:30 over the 3-day period. at 13:45, escorted by two policemen, i made my high-profile exit. if i'd ever enter the building again, i would be arrested for trespassing.

why this attempt to 'transform' myself to be an 'extraoridnary' person ended so abruptly? it's all because of this picture.

landmark education basement room #1A, 318A W 33rd street, 10:30, 20-aug-04.

apparently, pictures were not allowed during the forum. the programme moderator tried to talk to me privately after seeing me play with my camera, but i refused to talk to him. later, he brought in the manager of the ny landmark forum. they threatened to call the police if i didn't leave. i thought that i was so bored at the forum anyway and that it could be quite interesting to make a scene.

one thing i was confused, the leader kept saying the importance of transforming and becoming extraordinary as if people who didn't participate in this programme were degraded and that we, pedestrian people, must take the landmark forum to become better (and perhaps extraordinary). he used gandhi as an example to demonstrate how an ordinary person became extraordinary. really? sorry but i believe that some people are born extraordinary.

anyway, i am pretty sure i am on the black list now...

Nagoyan chanted...: way to go babe!
this forum sounds like a religious group - if you don't follow Jesus, you'll go to hell!; 20/8/04 16:58
Matthew chanted...: Thanks for visiting my site. I got the greek divers pic from:

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20040816/i/r1908004188.jpg

ENJOY !; 21/8/04 13:46
Anonymous chanted...: The Landmark forum is nothing else but a sect ! A French journalist managed to take part in that 3-days forum in Paris with a hidden camera... Not only people are humiliated but they are even not allowed to leave the room. Isn't it enough to understand that this organisation is a sect...?

CD

misscat; 27/8/04 09:44
Anonymous chanted...: More information on the landmark forum investigation(if you can read French) : http://pages.globetrotter.net/mleblank/msd/nv-land-12-05-2004.html

misscat; 27/8/04 10:14
mmonk chanted...: if landmark forum is not about "what you know that you know" and not about "what you know that you don't know" but "works in the realm of what you don't know you don't know"... then, rumsfeld must be a graduate.; 1/9/04 12:05
Anonymous chanted...: BRILLIANT! Thank you for anything you can do to disrupt this hideous cult that preys on people with low self exteem and sucks what little (or lotta) money they have. My family has had a terrible time because my sister is so brainwashed by these people that she's been practically robbing my mother whose income (barring help from her sons) is almost at poverty level. ANYTHING anyone can do to eradicate the brainwashing cults of the world: Christian or "Personality / Psuedo-Self Help" groups that take over a person's life. We were raised Southern Baptist as if that wasn't bad enough -- so out of one fire and into hell with Landmark. You are my hero!; 24/9/04 17:56

2005-08-13T20:49:00.000-07:00

i_am_haunted (i_am_haunted) wrote,
@ 2005-08-03 01:09:00

Wait, wait, WAIT!
My life is starting to move faster than I can keep up. LA was great, as always. Disneyland was amazing. I'm going back just as soon as I can.
I'm attending Landmark Forum in a few weeks. This scares the shit out of me because I don't like crowds and I feel I'll be facing my demons. Very scary. But maybe it's time. This changed my best friends life. I think it's going to change mine, too.

All this coupled with the possibility of being gone in three weeks makes my head spin.

2005-08-13T20:45:00.000-07:00

livejournal blog by Henry_thefirst
henry_thefirst (henry_thefirst) wrote,
@ 2005-07-27 21:51:00

Seething

My mother and I just got into a heated exchange. I am refusing to go to a self help clinic called "Landmark Forum" because I still believe in personal responsibility. My mother informed me that I am one of the most screwed up people she knows. I said "bullshit, mom! I get good grades, I don't do drugs, I drink moderately, I've not gotten a girl pregnant. I am happy with my life, I have a good honest, hardworking job, and good friends and people who care about me". She replied "you feel no personal responsibility towards your family".

That comment struck a very deep nerve. I try, but not hard enough to make my living at this house more than just taking up space and demanding food. But I always have been a horrible son, always been hurting this family more than helping. I just am torn apart about what is going on.

Both my parents went to this forum, and it helped them out incredibly. But they are older, have had more chances in their life to reflect and look upon the things that have caused them problems in their lives. I am twenty years old, I havn't done nearly enough crap in my life that I need to get sorted out. I just think me going to this would just be a supreme waste of time and money.

But the greater issue here is that I hate being told what to do. I hate it. I like to feel that I have some type of control over my life and how I spend my time. But my parents just signed me up for this thing, paid the bill, and expect me to go. My mother said that if I don't go, it just proves that I "have no integrity".

Ouch.

When my father gets home, I'm bound for a whole world of trouble. This is just stupid.

2005-08-12T20:10:00.000-07:00

karaksindru

12:21 am August 6th, 2005


	Landmark Forum - Day 1
	A couple of thoughts popped up for me during the forum that I put into the "notes" section of my phone. Now, we're not really supposed to take notes in the course, but I only took these two in the 14 hours I was there. "To get to the other side" and "There is no two" "To get to the other side" is, obviously, the best known punch line for "Why did the chicken cross the road." In Brian's explanation / apology at the end of Nuklear Age, he mentions that jokes are funny because the punchline is the unexpected. "To get to the other side" has transcended almost to the realm of meta-humor, because it's simultaneously expected and unexpected, and it knows it. When someone asks "Why did the chicken cross the road?" you instantly think "To get to the other side" but you supress that, expecting some other punchline. "To get away from the oven" or something. Instead, you get what you least expect, "To get to the other side" After reading Brian's words about it, I got it intellectually. I understood that it was funny, and why it was funny, but it wasn't really funny to me. Something happened early on in the day and it clicked. I grokked "To get to the other side" and had to supress my laughter so as not to disturb the group. The second comes from much later in the day, and i'm not sure if it's really worth re-creating ... We were engaged in the discussion about distinction, and what it means to be distinct. We were learning the Landmark use of "distinction" by getting distinct the distinction of "two" The leader started this by declaring "Forget everything you know about numbers. Forget about two. There is no two" which reminded me of that episode of Futurama where bender is becoming a were-car (I belive) and has a nightmare about 1's and 0's and a 2. Fry comforts him by saying "There there Bender. There's no such thing as two" Now? Bed time. gotta figure out some sort of non-starbucks-frozen-coffee morning beverage... I could go with the Iced Mochas I like from Noa Noa Espresso & News, but that'd add about 20 minutes to the drive ... maybe Peaberry has something ... Tags: landmark

2005-08-11T10:05:00.001-07:00

Sushil says...

"This particular course seems to have generated a lot of discussion on Divya's blog (http://www.nimbupani.com/) and there is a huge post on it at Soldier's blog (http://chaoticthots.blogspot.com/, I dont know who this is btw!). After reading through the post and the comments I'm intrigued. In this post I am not going to look at every aspect of the forum which has generated the discussion but specifically what Divya says it does.

Disclaimer
Now, I have never spoken to Landmark employees about my problems with their course and my knowledge of the course only comes from the blog post and its comments. However, I have attended a course on self actualization (or self help or whatever it maybe, semantics not important here) by one Swami Sukhabodananda in India. I attended this course simply for the experience i.e. with no expectations or predispositions as to what it can do. And i thinki would attend the Landmark Forum (money permitting, i'm still a lowly undergrad!) simply for that reason - just a new experience which has the potential of being helpful.

My understanding of what the landmark forum teaches you
Mainly from Divya's comments, the forum tells you what you did not know you didnt know about life. (Yeah, that sounds slightly complicated). Let me instead paste the part of Divya's comment which is relevant.

"Landmark is precisely not a self help course. Self Help course starts from what you know you dont know (for e.g. you know you cant do Karate kicks). And from what you dont know, using those self help books you try to "know" them (by reading "Karate for dummies"). If only you could do that, all of those who read those self-help books (like Getting Things Done) would have stopped procastinating and would have gotten into action. But why do they not help? The first thing Landmark Forum Leader talks in an introduction is, NOBODY NEEDS LANDMARK FORUM. It is not a faith or a cult or a drug that is required for salvation. It is simply a disucssion to provide a new angle to your life that you have never seen before. And you wont understand it precisely because you dont think there can be any new angle to your life! "

My opinion
I have a few questions:

1) Can another person tell you what the new angle to your life is?

2) Can this new angle be the same or atleast thematically similar to the 900 odd people (or whatever the number, again semantics dont matter) sitting in the room?

3) Do people really want to know the new angle?

Each question merits some explanation.

Question 1
I am of the opinion that its quite difficult for a third party to really tell you whats wrong with your life or what you need to do to make it better. This sounds too much like what a shrink does and even he/she needs to spend time with you to know your life inside out to make suggestions, doesn't he? This ofcourse might be just me being a skeptic. But the question needs to be asked.

Question 2
Here comes my biggest problem with the "new angle" and teaching you "what you didnt know you know" idea. I dont think that a new angle to life can be common to a group of people. And i am assuming here that there is not much one on one interchange, that the lecture or philosophy is common to all the participants which seems to be the case with halls being rented out for the seminars etc. How can this new angle be common to so many people? Especially people from different backgrounds, different social status and particularly different goals in life. Even if this angle is a general philiosophy or approach to life i do not believe that it can be common. There are different obstacles that each individual either puts up himself or faces through the course of his life. The kind of disparity over here is just too immense to be dealt with by a general "technology".

Question 3
This is a particularly pertinent question because of the mixed reactions that participants of the forum seem to display. I believe that sometimes we refuse to acknowledge certain things simply because we dont want to deal with them. The reasons for these are manifold; it might be because we dont want to acknowledge their existence or because we are scared we might not be able to deal with them. But whatever the reason ultimately, its about a personal choice we make as to whether we want to face a certain problem or not. Ofcourse i submit that in the spirit of honesty, openness and maybe even a desire to improve we need to acknowledge certain obstacles that we ourselves might have created for our success. Its also probably the healthy thing to do.

But I would humbly submit that the reason a few people face such mental turmoil after the forum is because they didnt believe that they could deal with those problems in the first place. Its also arguable that that very fear is a more important thing to conquer which the forum doesnt seem to accomplish and doesnt claim to either. The thing is its very difficult for these people to realise where their real fear stems from and the forum by bringing out all the obstacles only makes it worse for these people. Therefore I believe that the forum is only for a certain set of people.

To round off, I still believe that the forum can be good. Not only because several participants swear by it but simply because i do not wish to dismiss it on personal prejudice or expectations. I also agree that most people dont NEED the forum so i would submit that to base it on need is not the best way to decide. But i do have problems with the expectations that the marketing of the forum generates. If you go in expecting to reach the moon and they only manage a tree top its still a big fall. I would submit that its best to go for these things with no expectations and an open mind. Which ofcourse is difficult when they charge 750$ for it.

and comments from Divya, the LEC enthusiast.

divya said...

First Sushil, everything you are extrapolating as "facts" are only from websites with no authorization or credibility. Even the statement:

"But I would humbly submit that the reason a few people face such mental turmoil after the forum is because they didnt believe that they could deal with those problems in the first place."

I would like you to consider Sushil, not to treat this matter as a subject to have an opinion on, but actually attend an introduction and talk to the people and see what is in it for you.

So, whatever questions you have raised, here is my clarification, simply because there seems to be a misunderstanding.

1) Can another person tell you what the new angle to your life is?

A third party does not tell you about it. You realise it in your discussions. Nobody tells you "this is who you are, or this is what you didnt know". But the discussion is organised in such a way that you get to realise something new about yourself.

2) Can this new angle be the same or atleast thematically similar to the 900 odd people (or whatever the number, again semantics dont matter) sitting in the room?

I did not mean this angle to be a striaght jacket manna from heaven for the condemned souls. Each person gets to see a new facet of himself/herself.

"I believe that sometimes we refuse to acknowledge certain things simply because we dont want to deal with them."

Sometimes you dont even know why you are the way you are being. Suppose, for example, you get angry if a black cat passes you. You know that it is simply a bunch of superstitions and black cat doesnt do anything to you, but still you are suddenly gripped by fear of something bad is going to happen. You cant stop that. The "knowing" doesnt help.

If you do not want to realise a new facet to yourself. It is fine. Perfect. Just say "no" to Landmark Forum and walk away. No questions asked.

12:20 PM

sushil said...

hey Divya,

I dont think we ever doubted if we could walk away from the Landmark Forum. Neither am I personally trying to judge whether the forum is for me per se, i've already stated in my post that i would attend simply for the experience.
I'm just trying to have a discussion and since you are the only person i know who has attended it, i asked for your opinion.
As for the discussion, i was voicing my personal fears. If you would rather not answer them or if you think i should direct these questions to the employees of Landmark sure, no problem.

12:59 PM

divya said...

Sushil,

I apologise if I assumed you are simply exploring this topic as a topic to debate on.

I just have stated what the facts of the
discussion is upright, so that when you read it you will know how I am answering your questions.

I think I have already answered your fears in the comment I made above. If you have any more doubts, I simply invite you to attend an evening session on 23rd of August to get a complete perspective and to get clear on all your fears about the same.

Also, you had asked what if the other person does not want to know a new facet to himself/herself. Many of them sign up nevertheless. But if you are uncomfortable with that, then, I again suggest you address that to the relevant authorities.

6:53 PM

sushil said...

hey divya

yeah, i think ill come for the evening session on 23rd august. it would make more sense to direct these questions to the relevant authorities.

2:15 PM

divya said...

Sushil

THanks for being open! Will cya there then!

11:55 AM

2005-08-11T10:05:00.000-07:00

*Soldier* in Singapore
Blog Entry from http://chaoticthots.blogspot.com/2005/06/landmark-forum.html

The Landmark Forum

Disclaimer : What follows is my own personal opinion and perception of
the Landmark Forum. I do not profess that my interpretations constitute
the absolute truth. This post is also extremely long.

A couple of years ago, one of my colleagues kept speaking about
something called the Landmark Forum and how this Forum had introduced
exciting new possibilies in his life. The forum had also allowed him to
achieve every dream he had, and he spoke how he was able to create
breakthroughs at all points in his life after attending the forum.

It sounded intriguing.

Usually, whenever I am intrigued by anything that sounds too good to be
true, I usually do my own research using the Internet to dig into finer
details about such things. (and believe me, this Forum was being
projected as the Magic Pill that would solve all your problems in the
world, and that would take to the area where you would be able to
achieve everything that you didnt know existed in your domain of
possibilities)

I came across a bunch of articles on the Internet that seemed to be
very critical of the forum.

Drive Through Deliverance

Weekend Miracle or Unknown Risk

Rick Ross Page about Landmark and The Forum

The first criticism that seems to have been leveled against the Forum
is that it practices cult like behaviour. However, my colleague (a
person who has attended the Landmark Forum, the Advanced Forum, the
Self Expression and Leadership Forum - all programmes of Landmark
Education) told me that many people fail to understand that the forum
is able to build a strong bond amongst its participants - because
everyone is able to achieve some sort of transformation in their lives
through their attendance. And apparently this common bond is mistaken
by outsiders for cult like behavior.

I said "Hmmm, Alright. If you say so".
Though I didnt buy that argument.

It seemed that there could be no grey area with respect to what someone
felt about the forum. Some people believed that it was the best thing
to happen to them, whereas others believed that it was the worst thing
to happen. My colleague believed it was the best thing to happen to
him. He also mentioned that usually the human design is such that it
can only create breakthroughs when faced with adversity. However, the
Landmark Forum supposedly provides the 'Technology' to create
breakthroughs at all points of time in one's life. He followed up after
his discussion with me by extending an invitation to attend an
"Introduction to the Forum" session on a Tuesday night.

The Forum involves about 200 people sitting in a huge ballroom on
metallic white chairs. The walls of the room are supposedly plain, and
there is a very charismatic forum leader who talks about how our lives
are being significantly influenced by our past, and how by putting the
past in its place - we can live our lives to achieve the future that we
dream of. The forum starts on a Friday at 9 AM. And what was
interesting was the duration of the programme:

Friday : 9 AM to 12 Midnight (with a break at 12 Noon, a break at 5 PM
and a break at 8 PM)
Sat : 9 AM to 12 Midnight (with a break at 12 Noon, a break at 5 PM and
a break at 8 PM)
Sun: 9 AM to 12 Midnight (with a break at 12 Noon, a break at 5 PM and
a break at 8 PM)
Following Tue : 7 PM to 11 PM

I was stunned. How could anyone sit in a room and listen to something
for such a long time?
The answer from my colleague was - "Well, consider the topics are such
that they will engage your mind and get you to reflect and think. And
when your mind is engaged, you will not know how the time flies"

One of the articles critical of the forum talks about how even toilet
breaks outside of the scheduled breaks are discouraged, and how the
forum volunteers proactively prevent you from leaving for any
unscheduled breaks.

Response from my colleague : "Well, if you take a break when the Forum
is in session - you are relinquishing your right to achieve that
breakthrough that could have been created during the 2 minutes that you
were out taking a break".

A slick Marketing 101 type of response.

My colleague is a great person to work with. Very professional in his
approach, and very smart. So while he spoke to me about the Landmark
Forum, I gave him an ear because I respected him for what he was.

So he asked me again - "Will you attend the Forum?"
This was in 2003.
The first thing I told him was "I don't see a need for attending the
forum. I am completely aware that the only limitation to my potential
is my my own imagination. Besides, I have so often created
opportunities for myself that others thought did not exist. "

Colleague : "The Landmark Forum is not just for people who have a need
for it. It is also for very successful people as yourself. And your
reluctance to attend the forum is an aspect of your personality that
might be holding you back in many other areas of your life"

Me : "Alright. But I dont see a need. And unless I see a need - I will
not attend"

This colleague was very zealous about the whole thing - and used to
often have conversations about Landmark with us. I didn't want to be
rude - so I listened a few times. Then he managed to convince other
colleagues to attend the forum. I asked them for their feedback on the
forum - some said it was okay, others hated it, and one guy even told
me that he had a splitting headache at the end of the forum trying to
rationalize the thoughts that were stoked in his mind.
Now my colleague knew that I was a big fan of Harvard Business Review.
So he used the curiosity card by telling me about a case study that
Harvard Business School had written on the Landmark Education LLC. I
went a step further and searched the Internet, and came across a bunch
of articles that spoke about a tiff between HBS and Landmark - because
Landmark had used the HBS case study for publicity - when it was not
supposed to have done so. Now that raised another red flag about
Landmark and its supposed intent.

My colleagues who attended the programme told me that most of the
attendees had major parental relationship problems, and most of these
problems were discussed on the open floor during the forum. While I
believe in disclosure (as put forth by the Johari Model) to build trust
between two parties - I do not think I will be in any way comfortable
sharing a whole bunch of stuff with 150 people I hardly know. In the
same breath, I also need to emphasize that my relationships with people
close to me is stronger than ever - and it goes back to the point that
I really didn't see a need to attend the forum. My colleague gave up
trying to persuade me.

He tried to talk to me a couple of times last year - but I always made
some stupid excuses. I was so busy with my Business School applications
that I hardly had any time to spend an entire weekend attending
something for which I didnt see any compelling need. I remember one
intense conversation that I had:

Colleague : "What are your thoughts about attending the Landmark
Forum?"

Me: "Well, I am aware that the Forum has helped you lead a very
fulfilling life. However, I make my decisions based on intuition. Right
now - my gut feel and my intuition are not telling me anything about
the Forum. And until I hear from deep within that I need to go for the
Forum - I will not go"

Colleague : "What is your intuition based on? It is nothing but your
past experiences trying to influence your future. Live your future
through your present. Identify the past, but dont let it influence you"

Me: "Yeah, I know that the past should not completely influence my
future, but the past had shaped me to a certain extent - and I am not
being true to myself by totally neglecting it"

Me (thinking) : "I know all this. I know that I should focus on the
present, and the future emerges from the present. Tell me something
new. Besides, I am not going to waste my time with stuff like this when
I should be focussing on my BSchool applications"

Me: "I appreciate you telling me all this. I am also quite happy that I
can have a frank chat with you. I dont see a need now. I will approach
you if and when I see a need to attend"

Now where the whole Landmark Forum bit gets very interesting is in its
origins. Landmark is an offspring of EST - a seminar that was pioneered
by a person called Werner Erhard. EST had some radical offerings - and
like Landmark, EST was also a Large Group Awareness Training. EST was
conducted by a charismatic forum leader who made the people believe
that their lives had been meaningless and that EST was going to change
that. How very convenient.EST was remodelled and the Landmark Forum was
derived from some aspects of the EST.

Landmark Education is a privately owned company. Most employees are
volunteers who believe that by marketing the basic Forum, the advanced
Forum and other Landmark Forums - they are actually helping many people
achieve breakthroughs in all aspects of their life. (Landmark states
that 2 Million people have taken its courses, and quotes statistics on
how 9 out of 10 people have gotten something meaningful out of it).
These volunteers are not paid for their efforts. There are a few 100
Forum Leaders the world over who conduct the forums, and I am guessing
that these people are paid for their efforts. Landmark states that the
money it collects through its programmes is used for developing its
programmes, opening new offices...

The fees to attend the Forum in 2003 was S$450. I found out that this
year the fees have been raised to $750. There are 6 such forums each
year. 200 people attend each forum. 1200 people in Singapore paying an
average of $500 for the forum - $600, 000. The forum is NOT
residential. So renting a venue and providing food for 3 days during
each forum might cost $15,000 maximum. Thats $75,000 for 6 forums. That
still leaves the local Landmark office with S$525,000 in spare change.
What happens with that? We dont know. Since Landmark is a private
company, it is not obliged to share this information. If I am paying
close to $800 to attend a supposed self improvement programme, I would
like to know what happens with the money and what is the supposed value
that is being promised.

Interestingly, if you ask any of the Landmark volunteers about the
topics that are discussed - they say that the 'Technology' is
proprietary. You only find out what goes on by attending a Forum. And
Forum attendees are bound not to take notes or share this 'Technology'
with anyone else. 'Technology' is a connotation for concepts that are
discussed. After talking to any Landmark volunteer for a short while,
you soon realize that these volunteers have a lot of connotations.

Landmark graduates don't say they understood you. They say "They GOT
you"

Landmark graduates don't say they are trying to persuade you to attend.
They say "They are trying to ENROLL you into attending the programme"

Landmark graduates don't say that you are making excuses. They say "You
are creating an ESCAPE HATCH to bail out"

I do agree that language, semantics and our communication play a very
large part in our motivation to do something and on our general outlook
on life. However, you can also overdo the whole thing to a ridiculous
exent. As shown through the examples above.

My colleague continued with a conversation last month, and because I
didn't want to dismiss him abruptly - I finally agreed to attend a
"Introduction to the Landmark Forum" session. This session basically
tried to sell the same thing to us - that the Landmark Forum can create
new possibilities in your life. Alright. Point noted. At the end of
this Forum, I was asked what I thought about attending the next Forum.

I was thinking with an open mind - and I said "I see some positives in
the Forum, and I might attend it some time in the future. I have not
made up my mind yet"

The person running the introduction session tried to hard-sell the
Forum to me then and there, trying to convince me to sign up for the
Forum this weekend. I was told that the best time to do the Forum was
before I embarked on the next big thing in my life - the MBA, and how
the Forum would basically take me to heights of greatness that I never
knew existed. I was told that there was no doubt that I would be
successful and that the Forum would only remove any ceiling to my
success in life.

Very suave of those volunteers trying to lure my ego (by talking about
future greatness) to sign up for the Forum. My philosophy is simple : A
whole bunch of people in the world have achieved extraordinary success
in life through their own efforts. I believe I am no different. I dont
need a 3-day seminar, promising the world, to achieve my goals in life.
The next wave of persuasion followed through with another favorite
topic of mine - Leadership. I was then told how the Forum would allow
me to bring divergent groups of people under a common purpose to
achieve any goal or vision. I saw through that. I refused to sign for
the Forum and left.

My colleague spent an hour on Monday speaking to me and trying to paint
vivid pictures of how the Forum would help me solve all my existing and
future problems in life, and why I should sign up for it. I have to
give due credit to him for being so persistent, and for answering all
my questions (though I was not convinced by all his answers). I
promised that I would give another thought to attending the forum this
weekend, and let him know the next day.

I spent some time thinking about it, and basically my issues with the
forum boiled down to:

1. Deep within, I didnt see a need to attend the Forum. Also I was not
convinced that the Forum was something I would truly accept and enjoy.
And when I am not convinced about something, I will not do it.

2. The Forum is an intensive session (read 15 hours each day, sitting
on white metallic non ergonomic chairs all through, limited refreshment
and toilet breaks) - and that to me - practically involves manipulating
the thoughts of a large group of people to conform to concepts that
Landmark Education has created. So in many ways, it robs people of
their individuality by transforming them to talk in wierd connotative
language as above.

3. $750 is a lot of money. While I dont think about spending $750 on a
new digital camera, I will think twice before spending it on a Forum
where the volunteers are not ready to discuss (prior to the forum)
about what happens during the forum. Its a black box. And I dont want
to waste $750 on something like that.

4. One of the persuasion points put forth by one of the volunteers was
"There is no doubt that you will very successful in life. Landmark will
only take you further".
I know that through my hard work and focus - I can be very successful.
And by attending a seminar like the Landmark, I have read about cases
where people have come out of the seminar totally disoriented and lost.
Even though the risk of that happening with me is practically nil, I
believe that "Only the Paranoid Survive". And I think that taking such
a risk (of being disoriented) especially when the rewards are really
not so overwhelming - is plain stupid.

5. While the Landmark claims that it helps you create many
breakthroughs in many different aspects of your life - I believe that
Life is something that has to be truly experiential. I particularly
cherish learning about life at every step - and I think that there is
more enjoyment in doing that, than there is in trying to learn about
life over a weekend. Landmark might not claim that it aims to teach
everything about life during a weekend, but atleast that's the
impression their sales pitch gives. It might help to get breakthroughs
about life during adversity but when you are not faced by any
adversity(as in my case at this point) - life's lessons should be truly
experiential over a period of time.

6. Landmark graduates are extremely zealous in convincing people to
attend (Landmark Education proactively encourages the graduates of its
short seminars to bring/convince/persuade/enroll as many guests as
possible). Maybe for these graduates, their success in convincing more
people to attend serves as a reaffirmation that their decision to
attend this forum was the right thing.

7. I just got turned off by the incessant marketing efforts. It was
worse that it was coming from a colleague whom I respected. It was like
the Multi Level Marketing thing. And that peeves me off totally.

I also spent some time reading the following articles. These convinced
me that my intuition was right all along. That I will NOT attend the
Landmark Forum. NEVER EVER.

http://skepdic.com/landmark.ht ml

http://www.geocities.com/Area5 1/Shadowlands/8080/forum1.htm

http://www.rickross.com/refere nce/forum/Art106.html
(The last link is an excerpt from "The Children of est: A study of the
Experience and Perceived Effects of a Large Group Awareness Training
(The Forum)" Ph.D. Dissertation, University of Denver, 1994 By Charles
Wayne Denison)

My point is that the Landmark Forum is NOT for me. If you have read
this post until here, thank you muchy for bearing with this huge rant
of mine. Thank you. Thank you.

2005-08-11T10:04:00.000-07:00

IN Singapore:

Essays of his own.

Comments in Soldier's blog

2005-08-11T10:02:00.000-07:00

Video logs? Now that sounds exciting!!!

Cirne

2005-08-11T06:29:00.000-07:00

Mr. Erhard

2005-08-10T15:18:00.000-07:00

2005-08-10T15:17:00.000-07:00

2005-08-10T15:11:00.000-07:00

Click title for the journal.

"After dinner, for about an hour or so, more people spewed their guts on stage and it almost made me sick to my stomach. Maybe it was the dinner I had, a Boca burger and fresh carrot juice from the tree hugging organic food store down the street. The burger was ok; it almost tasted like real meat but not quite. The carrot juice was absolutely disgusting! Yuck, never again! Anyways back to the session, finally the Leader gets up and says “This will be the last item we’re going to discuss at this week’s Landmark Forum.” What it is? What is it? My eyes grew starry and big, full of anticipation and eagerness like that of an innocent child waiting to open his first Christmas gift. “We’re going to take the rest of the time to talk about the Landmark Advanced Course and how it will benefit you.”……………….WHAT! A freaking marketing pitch! Screw you! The child is innocent no more! What else? It costs twice as much as this course.....And you want me to do what? Sign up for it today so I can get a small discount. YOU WISH! NO WAY! IN YOUR DREAMS! AND OVER MY DEAD BODY! Out the door I go as others rushes toward the registration table as if their lives depended on it."

2005-08-10T14:55:00.000-07:00

Brother Gatling Gun of Desirable Mindfulness (dawningday) wrote,
@ 2005-08-04 08:40:00

Current mood:	f'in step off!
Current music:	none yet...

Bad Start
By 8:30 AM today, I was already done with people.

One of my faculty totally jumped the gun on an academic dishonesty charge, circumventing both the student's mentor and other committee member. (The student is currently completing his comprehensive examination.) While it looks like the learner's infraction is certainly egregious, it also looks like it was the first time the student had ever heard anything from the faculty - period. And there's no comments from the other members of the student's committee on this at all.

Add this to the already pending case of plagiarism I'm dealing with on another student's comprehensive exam. This one I'm already working on is a pain in the ass, as well, because the student is actually a relatively skilled plagiarizer. Most are pretty artless, but this one has actually done a little work to blend the plagiarized material into her own. That case has its own ridiculous idiosyncracies as well.

Add to this the fact I didn't get to bed until midnight. And then, while getting coffee this morning, the gf tells me how she got all pissed off at someone for not admitting they did something wrong, but she totally was just being self-righteous. Then she bitched about her cats - cats that she was totally insistent on getting. I had actually originally wanted to spend the evening with her, as she's starting the Landmark Forum tomorrow, but now, I don't want to have anything to do with her today. My string is just too short today - reticence with her this morning was a supreme act of will.

I still have to be here for at least seven hours. GAH! I think it's a big headphone day.

	because i can't stop myself from poking the bear purpleyarrow 2005-08-04 14:03 (link)
	... Has she read any of the detractor pieces on the net about Landmark? I had a supervisor that had been trying to get me involved in it and the stuff I found was pretty sketchy. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	Re: because i can't stop myself from poking the bear dawningday 2005-08-04 19:22 (link)
	A lot of the stuff you find on the net about Wicca is pretty sketchy, too. Same for shamanism. Or any religion or program. (Reply to this)(Parent) (Thread)

Re: because i can't stop myself from poking the bear
purpleyarrow
2005-08-04 19:41 (link)

Yes, but the difference I find there is that *for the most part* prostletizing is not part of Wicca. Or shamanism. And overwhelmingly it seemed to be a part of Landmark.

I mean no disrespect, seeing that you are a graduate of Landmark. But please understand that having had my grad school supervisor in the clinic I was working for not only try to push Landmark on me but also not really back off about it when I *politely* asked her to stop trying to get me to go to seminars when a) I had no money for it and b) had no time for it as a grad student left a particularly bad taste in my mouth about the whole organization.

When I was working my ass off and paying for the privledge to do so, the last thing I wanted to hear from the person that I was relying on for support was that I was deliberately not trying to be a better person because I wouldn't go to this seminar. That and the fact that this seminar would be more useful than the $10,000 I had just spent going to school to learn to be a counselor.

You will note that I dropped out of grad school. This certainly wasn't the only circumstance regarding why, but I can't say it didn't contribute.

You seem a better person than that. And I'm glad that it has worked for you. And the fact that I haven't seen you trying to push it off on anyone else speaks volumes for how you handle it. Kudos to you.

But I'm sad to say that what I read about Landmark far more fell into line with the way my supervisor behaved rather than what I've read of you. And that was why I asked. A person should at least be informed.

(Reply to this)(Parent) (Thread)

Re: because i can't stop myself from poking the bear
dawningday
2005-08-04 19:55 (link)

I do understand that perspective. But I've run into Wiccans who also proselytize, even though that's not offically part of the package.

Most of it, from where I stand, is a conflation on the part of the grads between the terms "enrollment" and "registration." You are encouraged to enroll people in the possibilities you create - and by this (and boy oh boy did they drive this home), they mean that you leave them touched, moved, and inspired about what you're doing. "Registration" is about getting others to enroll in the program, and while they certainly don't disencourage it, there wasn't that much about it.

However, if you conflate those two ideas, it's real easy to turn into an obnoxious proselytizer. Most of the people there were totally unfamiliar with the sort of work that was being done, and I think that it would be very easy for them to take a lot of it the wrong way. For myself, it presented a lot of familiar material in a new and rather novel way. I certainly wouldn't recommend it for just anyone, and what your supervisor did was, in my mind, foolish and counterproductive.

(I will say that the big trick to getting Landmark people to back off is to simply say "No." If you give reasons, they will interpret them as excuses, and that will likely be interpreted as a sign that you need the Forum even more. I chose not to register for the seminar sessions included in the cost of the Forum. When they asked me about it, they said "Were you thinking about taking them?" I simply replied, "No, I wasn't," and they dropped it.)

(Reply to this)(Parent) (Thread)

Re: because i can't stop myself from poking the bear
elphaba_of_oz
2005-08-04 21:16 (link)

That is exactly the root of my knee-jerk reaction to any mention of the Landmark forum. I don't like it when someone doesn't honor my "No." It's disrespectful. One guy I saw every single day hounded all of his friends and refused to take no for an answer. It got ugly. I don't like ugly. It's nobody's job but mine to interpret my motives.

(I will say that the big trick to getting Landmark people to back off is to simply say "No."

(Reply to this)(Parent)

	Oh Gosh! elphaba_of_oz 2005-08-04 14:15 (link)
	This is your gfs final day as a non-brainwashed person. Save her from the Landmark forum! Make her change her mind! Tie her up and throw her in a closet! All of the Landmark Forum grads I know are obnoxious. After they complete the forum, their sole purpose in all of their interpersonal relationships is to get the other person into the Landmark Forum. (Reply to this)(Thread)

Look before you leap
dawningday
2005-08-04 19:21 (link)

I'll assume you won't want to make my acquaintance any further, since I am a graduate of the Landmark Forum. To respond to purpleyarrow's comment, she is familiar with the detractors. She has still decided to do it. Most of the people I've met who are obnoxious Landmark Forum grads strike me as the sort of people who would have been obnoxious without the Forum, and generally try to get everyone into whatever they're into anyway. You can't really blame the program for who some of its participants are.

And gee, all this is making me like people so much more. [/sarcasm] I should learn a lesson from seedmoon and not post anything about it...

(Reply to this)(Parent) (Thread)

Re: Look before you leap
elphaba_of_oz
2005-08-04 21:10 (link)

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to offend you. I have never met you. Through this medium you seem pretty cool.

My comment was based on my past experience with a limited number of Landmark (and EST) graduates. The people I know who have gone through the program were relentless in their attempts to get me to go to an introductory session. They didn't let up thier pressure on me, or the other people in their lives, even after they had been told no very firmly and clearly. One of these people eventually ended up distancing himself from the individuals who refused to go. I don't mind a "Hey, you might find this interesting" comment every now and then. But "I don't want to be close to anyone who hasn't done the Forum" strikes me as the kind of indoctrination one gets through indoctrination into a cult.

Perhaps it's just my bad luck that I've only been exposed to Landmark grads who were susceptible to that kind of thinking. I have a bad taste in my mouth about the whole thing, but I recognize that you may be different. You might not behave in the manner I have found so distressing in the past. Please accept my apology.

(Reply to this)(Parent) (Thread)

Re: Look before you leap
dawningday
2005-08-05 00:01 (link)

I appreciate and accept your apology. From my perspective, I think that Landmark is much like any other transformative experience: it leaves an indelible mark. For people who've never accessed such power before, they tend to go a little overboard, whether it's Landmark or Christianity or anything else.

In terms of the distancing, I can understand that. When I quit drinking and getting stoned, I distanced myself from the people with whom that was my only connection. Landmark really exposed the superficiality and negativity of a number of my relationships, and it did lead to a different way of approaching things. I can see how for someone who is just starting down the path of self-transformation, they'd need to distance themselves from others who don't/can't relate.

If someone wanted to do the work, you could probably identify a cult that exists within the Landmark community - sort of a "Landmark fundie" thing. However, just as it's not really cool to stereotype based on the actions of a minority (or even a majority), I think whether or not a person has done Landmark, it comes down to their actions. I've met grads who don't have their lives together, and I've met people who are rabidly anti-Landmark that espouse philosophies that are not very different from what's in the Forum.

2005-08-10T14:49:00.000-07:00

Okay.... this is weird, EH?

Interesting Links: landmark forum: "One way to determine if the numbers add up is to check the prices of landmark forum at your local store. Let's assume that you live in New Zealand and are accustomed to buying landmark forum locally. You may find that United States prices are quite amazing even after the normal currency conversions. You've now entered the world of International landmark forum E-Commerce. "

2005-08-10T14:43:00.000-07:00

She says::

A couple of thoughts popped up for me during the forum that I put into the "notes" section of my phone. Now, we're not really supposed to take notes in the course, but I only took these two in the 14 hours I was there.

"To get to the other side" and "There is no two"

"To get to the other side" is, obviously, the best known punch line for "Why did the chicken cross the road." In Brian's explanation / apology at the end of Nuklear Age, he mentions that jokes are funny because the punchline is the unexpected. "To get to the other side" has transcended almost to the realm of meta-humor, because it's simultaneously expected and unexpected, and it knows it. When someone asks "Why did the chicken cross the road?" you instantly think "To get to the other side" but you supress that, expecting some other punchline. "To get away from the oven" or something. Instead, you get what you least expect, "To get to the other side"

After reading Brian's words about it, I got it intellectually. I understood that it was funny, and why it was funny, but it wasn't really funny to me. Something happened early on in the day and it clicked. I grokked "To get to the other side" and had to supress my laughter so as not to disturb the group.

The second comes from much later in the day, and i'm not sure if it's really worth re-creating ...

We were engaged in the discussion about distinction, and what it means to be distinct. We were learning the Landmark use of "distinction" by getting distinct the distinction of "two" The leader started this by declaring "Forget everything you know about numbers. Forget about two. There is no two" which reminded me of that episode of Futurama where bender is becoming a were-car (I belive) and has a nightmare about 1's and 0's and a 2. Fry comforts him by saying "There there Bender. There's no such thing as two"

Now? Bed time. gotta figure out some sort of non-starbucks-frozen-coffee morning beverage... I could go with the Iced Mochas I like from Noa Noa Espresso & News, but that'd add about 20 minutes to the drive ... maybe Peaberry has something ... Tags: landmark

2005-08-10T14:39:00.000-07:00

Tuesday: All-out War: "This kid needs serious help--she needs the Landmark Forum. At the risk of sounding like a missionary (of sorts), I have to say that the Landmark Forum for Teens changed my life, and it'll change my sister's, if she'll only give it a chance."

2005-08-10T14:33:00.000-07:00

I know this is long but it's important

Well hello world- for the past three days I have been sitting in a chair for about 15 hours a day. I dont know if any of you have ever heard of the Landmark Forum, but McLean and I participated in it this weekend. If you don't know what it is, it's pretty much this awesome class to figure out how to live a life you love and making anything in your life possible while getting all of these cool concepts that you didn't even know that you didn't know. It's pretty sweet- And it doesn't feel like it was really even that long-

Anyways, I thought I would share a few things from it that I have gotten for my life and would like you all to know so that you can help me be this new person that i have decided to commit to being. So to begin, maybe some of you knew that the end of the school year and this summer so far have been quite depressing- but anyways, I used to think of myself as being joyful and happy and outgoing- and when I started to get depressed I felt like I had to keep pretending that everything was fine so that nobody knew how I really was- some of this was caused by my thinking that I didn't have any kind of special or unique talents and that I could never live up to my brothers or be as extraordinary as they are. So having these amazing people surrounding me all the time and me not feeling like I can make much of a difference was really detrimental. A few other things played a part too- like feeling a little too distant from God and losing touch with my faith a little bit. But anyways, after realizing what I really am and getting rid of my past and the stories I had created about my life, I am so much more free to truly live my life how I was created to live it- I was able to complete a lot of issues in my past and see the weird stories I created about things and see that in reality the things that happend had no meaning to them, just what I made things mean.

So I wanted to apologize to all of you if I have ever being a jerk or rude or unfair or for anything that I said or did to you. Please forgive me for that so that I can have a really extraordinary relationship with each of you and so I can stay connected to those of you going off to college this year.
Also, if any of you are interested, tomorrow night there is the closing session of my class and any of you are more than welcome to come, not just for me or McLean, but so you can see what it's all about for yourself and find out if it would be something you are interested in. If you want to come please call me or McLean today or sometime tomorrow so we can look for you. It is in the building off of Dry Creek right before you get to Holly on the right side if you are coming from the west. I believe it starts at 7:45. If you have any questions let me know. Okay, so, now that I am able to look at the next school year in a totally different light, I am so thrilled to find out what it has in store for me- i have been less than optimistic about this next year lately, but now I believe I can make it and the rest of the years to come the best years of my life.

SO finally, the whole point of this was so that you could all know that I am creating the possibility for me and my life of being joyful and inspiring and holy. Thank you all so much for being in my life, I can't wait to see what you all will do with your lives because I know you all have so much ahead of you. OK, bye for now- lots of love....Candace

2005-08-10T14:29:00.000-07:00

Click title to go to the blog.

"Oh, Nick called me on Friday morning, and he wants me to fly out to NYC to do this teen forum thing for Landmark. I've decided I might as well because it will make him happy, and it will make me happy to see my brother. Anyway, I don't particularly like the way he's approaching this getting us into Landmark thing, but if it's really helping him, if I approach it with an open mind, perhaps it will help me as well."

2005-08-10T14:26:00.000-07:00

Click title to go to site.

..."my scooter runs faster"

2005-08-10T14:23:00.000-07:00

Click title to go to site.

..."All right, so what, where's the problem?" Well. My problem is that I hear LOTS of "It means nothing!" and talk of personal empowerment. I hear lots of people describing how we all deserve, merely by being humans, merely by existing, to be happy and live the lives we want to live and do what we want to do. Lovely sentiments. But when you use "Nothing that happens means anything" you open a REAL big can of worms. It's deceptive, and over-generalized, and imprecise. Things DO have meaning. Knowing how that basic meaning will impact others, based on their operating rules, is important. The self-empowerment found in "happenings have no meaning" is heady, and wonderful - power is fun. But it also requires a great deal of responsibility. And I don't hear that part getting talked up AT ALL. I hear lots of how we all deserve it, through no effort at all, no proof of a sense of responsibility required. Chain saws and toddlers..."

2005-08-10T14:19:00.000-07:00

The life of gaf: Landmark

Landmark
Went to the Landmark Forum this weekend.
Have to sit down and write about it.

I got it.

2005-08-10T14:13:00.000-07:00

Adventures in Toronto, more on cults.

"Unfortunately I have heard of people who join Landmark Education and the Landmark Forum spending thousands of dollars signing up for more and more courses. I saw with my own eyes how the person that I know paid for the next level of courses, called SELP. I saw how he paid $300 or more in cash and signed up for the next level. So even if he decides to leave after 4 or 5 years it will have cost him thousands of dollars. The excuse he was giving himself, and telling me for spending this money is that at least he was learning something. I doubt it. I mainly think that all that peer pressure is too difficult to reject."

2005-08-10T14:00:00.000-07:00

And one of the elders of the city said, "Speak to us of Good and Evil."

And he answered:

Of the good in you I can speak, but not of the evil.

For what is evil but good tortured by its own hunger and thirst?

Verily when good is hungry it seeks food even in dark caves, and when it thirsts, it drinks even of dead waters.

You are good when you are one with yourself.

Yet when you are not one with yourself you are not evil.

For a divided house is not a den of thieves; it is only a divided house.

And a ship without rudder may wander aimlessly among perilous isles yet sink not to the bottom.

You are good when you strive to give of yourself.

Yet you are not evil when you seek gain for yourself.

For when you strive for gain you are but a root that clings to the earth and sucks at her breast.

Surely the fruit cannot say to the root, "Be like me, ripe and full and ever giving of your abundance."

For to the fruit giving is a need, as receiving is a need to the root.

You are good when you are fully awake in your speech,

Yet you are not evil when you sleep while your tongue staggers without purpose.

And even stumbling speech may strengthen a weak tongue.

You are good when you walk to your goal firmly and with bold steps.

Yet you are not evil when you go thither limping.

Even those who limp go not backward.

But you who are strong and swift, see that you do not limp before the lame, deeming it kindness.

You are good in countless ways, and you are not evil when you are not good,

You are only loitering and sluggard.

Pity that the stags cannot teach swiftness to the turtles.

In your longing for your giant self lies your goodness: and that longing is in all of you.

But in some of you that longing is a torrent rushing with might to the sea, carrying the secrets of the hillsides and the songs of the forest.

And in others it is a flat stream that loses itself in angles and bends and lingers before it reaches the shore.

But let not him who longs much say to him who longs little, "Wherefore are you slow and halting?"

For the truly good ask not the naked, "Where is your garment?" nor the houseless, "What has befallen your house?"

2005-08-10T13:07:00.000-07:00

Once upon a time...

2005-08-10T12:03:00.000-07:00

Blog entry
Anthony
rank: Comandante
points: 9740
occupation: Writer/Editor/Producer
location: New York, US

Anthony Lappé is GNN's Executive Editor. He's written for The New York
Times, Details, New York, Paper, The Fader and Vice, among many others.
He has worked as a producer for MTV, Fuse and WTN. He is the co-author
of GNN's True Lies and the producer of their Iraq doc, BattleGround.

http://anthony.gnn.tv/blogs/49 /Is_the_Landmark_Forum_a_Cult_ or_Just_a...

HE gives it a mixed review. Knows people who have gone through it and
done pretty well and still thinks it's kinda a scam.

"A friend of mine at New York magazine wrote a hilarious feature story
on it last year. I love the part when they tell the African dude whose
father was killed before his eyes to get over "the soap opera of his
life." Can't make that stuff up."

Trivia Question. Who would that friend be? Clock is ticking.

2005-08-10T12:01:00.000-07:00

Blog entry from "The Rantings of Eric Nehrlich",
http://www.nehrlich.com/blog/2 003/11/15/evil-cults/ :

===============================
Evil cults

(written 11/10/03) This is going to be a rant. It's not a reasoned
discussion, it's not an unbiased look at the facts, it's pretty
much just a rant. Go with it.

It started with a friend of a friend trying to drag people to a
Landmark Forum event, raving about how it had changed their life. I was
skeptical, to say the least. Landmark Forum, according to skepdic, is
an offshoot of est, which is itself an offshoot of Scientology. I
didn't end up going to the event, because it conflicted with another
obligation, but I did a little reading and thinking, and I'm mostly
just recording that here.

Here's what I don't get. Why do people believe in crap like this?
As far as I can tell, most of these cults (from Jesus Christ onwards)
have one message: "You're a good person. You are valued. Keep on
paying us, and we'll continue to value you." I can understand the
need for validation, and for external approval. I crave it myself. But
I don't understand why people think that such validation that comes
with a price tag is worth anything. I only hope I never get that
desperate.

It's a weird thing. Many of these programs, apparently including
Landmark Forum, strive to break down the participants in order to build
them back up. Things like refusing bathroom breaks, holding the
meetings at odd hours (Landmark Forum meetings are typically at 10pm, I
assume to take advantage of people being tired and slightly
disoriented, and therefore more impressionable), sleep deprivation, and
repetition of the core message. When you're broken down, then they
can build you back up, and you'll forever be dependent on them.

But, as my friend pointed out, even skepdic admits that sometimes these
programs help people. And that doesn't surprise me. After all, the
placebo effect helps people about 30-50% of the time even when dealing
with actual physical diseases. And I can even see how these programs
could help people deal with their life better, providing a crutch to
help them get on with their life.

The evil part is that, instead of teaching them to walk first with the
crutch and then on their own two feet, they teach them to walk with the
crutch, teach them to be dependent on the crutch, and then threaten to
take the crutch away unless they pay up. That's pure unadulterated
evil. I have a strong belief in the right of people to attempt to
achieve their potential, and deliberately crippling people with a
mental crutch like that flies in the face of all that I hold dear.
Teaching people to believe in themselves is valuable. Teaching people
that they hold their destiny in their own hands is wonderful. Teaching
people that to achieve their destiny, they must attend the advanced
course is pure poppycock.

The other thing that I thought was interesting was that this friend of
a friend apparently made a comment to the effect of "I really got to
reinvent myself" at a Landmark Forum event over the weekend. My
immediate thought was "So is 'reinventing myself' code for
'making myself feel better about myself'?" I'm skeptical that
one can "reinvent" oneself in the sense of making measurable
alterations in one's behavior over the course of a weekend. One's
behavior is so locked in by nature and nurture that changing anything
fundamental about yourself is really really hard. Learning to accept
one's limitations and working within one's behavior patterns is one
thing. Changing them is another. I've spent a lot of time trying to
change what I don't like about myself, and have learned there's no
shortcuts. There's no easy path. It's long, it's hard, it's
miserable, and sometimes it's just not worth it, and you have to just
accept the way you are.

I can definitely see the appeal of somebody offering a shortcut. I'd
love to become instantaneously more sociable and more comfortable
around people. But it doesn't work that way. It's the equivalent of
dieting. Dieting, in the end, is about eating right and exercising.
There's no shortcuts. But that doesn't stop people from trying
every fad diet that comes along, and paying for the right, to the tune
of $40-100 billion a year in the US. I see these programs like Landmark
Forum to be the mental equivalent of the diet industry. They're there
to give you a temporary boost, which is doomed to fail in the long
term, so that they can get you to pay more money for another go-round.
And the real solution is free and available - it's just hard work.

Anyway. I think I've said what I want to say for the moment. I'm
sure I'll come back to this subject over the next few days.

2005-08-10T11:52:00.000-07:00

Blog from http://thunderroadie.blogspot. com/2005/02/apologies.html :
======================
Wednesday, February 02, 2005
apologies
I sincerely apologize to my two readers for having been away for so
long. Lots of things going on and I just did not have any time or
energy to spend on the blog. Been doing a lot of stand-up and other
kinds of writing, which is wonderful, but it does mean the blogging
suffers. SO let me catch you up a little bit:

I went on a date with this girl last night. Here are the facts about
the thing:

1. This girl is gorgeous
2. She is in a cult.
3. She smells really nice and seems really cool.
4. She is in a cult.
5. We got along pretty well and she thought I was funny and I would
love to hang out with her again.
6. She is in a cult.
7. She is in a cult
8. She is in a cult.
9. Is she in a cult?
10. Yes.

Its not really a cult, but its like some self-help bullshit
money-making scam that feeds on lost souls, kind of like helldemons do.
Its called Landmark Education. Type it into google. You'll see. What
sucks is that she seems like a pretty centered person; they just got
her at the wrong time I think. She loves it right now, but she stillhas
a lot of courses to go. I had never heard of it before, but the more
she talked about it the more I hated it, but I had to hold my tongue.
If we hang out again I would have to call it out a little bit, at which
point she would get incensed, toss her vodka tonic at me and run away.
With her beautiful face in tow.

When she started telling me about it, she said "Its not a self help
thing." and I thought that was good because self-help stuff is a bunch
of bullshit. But then she explained it more, and I ended up wishing it
had just been a self-help thing. Its got a pretty heavy emphasis on
recruitment and having a strict communal bond with your group members.
Just the amount of mumbo jumbo and the money they charge for "Life
Classes" makes me throw up a little bit in my throat.

Shame cuz, like I said, she smells great. And is actually a cool
interesting person.

Oh, I guess I can add another to the list of date-breakers:

"Its not a cult although it has been written up as such."

Which translates to:

"Its a goddamm cult."

From the blog of...

The Random Meandering Ramblings of a Semi-Mad Network Admin

2005-08-10T11:50:00.000-07:00

Cue Theme to Jaws.

Roveberg, (no relation to rosenberg) threw his gauntlet down on the
well fortified arena at rickross.com

"Bring me your doubts," he cried. "I have a high listening for STaff."

And he got shredded with logic and facts. And cross shredded with taunts and jeers, till he was baby fish kibble. Not a pretty sight.

Kind of like watching a spent hen being fed live into a wood chipper.
And he was warned.. As he says. "I'm actually breaching policy as
technically I'm communicating with the media."